Author Topic: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah  (Read 9542 times)

fieldafm

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Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« on: November 29, 2012, 11:44:10 AM »

http://savannahnow.com/exchange/2012-11-28/atlanta-mayor-kasim-reed-dreams-high-speed-rail-savannah#.ULYJIIWmCOU

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In the past several weeks, Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed has been floating a grand new vision for Georgia — connecting Atlanta and Savannah with high-speed rail.

“We can create a trail of prosperity between those two regions,” Reed said last week during a talk at the Commerce Club.

According to Reed, he started to focus on the idea after hearing the complaints of a server at one of his favorite restaurants that Atlanta was not close enough to the coast and the ocean.

But if Atlanta and Savannah were connected by a modern-day, high-speed train going an average of 200 miles an hour, the coast would be within a 75-minute ride from Atlanta.

Such a train would change the complexion of Georgia — from two Georgias with two different economies to a state with a transportation infrastructure that could help reinforce the notion of Georgia becoming “the logistics hub of the Western hemisphere” in the 21st Century.

“We stand here on the precipice of great things … We can’t be afraid of doing large things,” said Reed, who freely admitted that he’s been focusing on the basics of running a city.

 

The TGV train in France

Reed’s comments took me back to April, 1985. Then-Lt. Gov. Zell Miller was on a trade delegation to France to celebrate the inaugural Delta Air Lines flight to Paris.

During the trade mission of 150 Atlantans, Miller experienced the TGV, which stands for “Tres Grande Vitesse” or high-speed, from Paris to Lyon traveling at about 163 miles and hour.

“This is not an idle dream for Georgia,” Miller said during the ride. “It’s something that I’m interested in enough to pursue. It’s a fascinating concept for the future of Georgia, but I’m a practical and realistic politician.”

Also on that trip was then-Atlanta Mayor Andrew Young who shared the same vision.

“Some of us believe that TGV is very much needed in the United States,” Young said, “and I’d like the first TGV in the United States to be developed in Georgia.”

Despite being elected governor a few years later, Miller fell short of following through on the dream of bringing high-speed rail to Georgia.

After the 1996 Summer Olympic Games, metro Atlanta business leaders wanted to make sure the state’s economy would continue to prosper.

The Metro Atlanta Chamber joined forces with 14 other major metro chambers of commerce in six Southeastern states (Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia) to promote a high-speed rail network for the region.

The Southeastern Economic Alliance was formed a dozen years ago, and it was politically well-received by several key leaders. Then-U.S. Rep. Johnny Isakson (now a U.S. senator) convened a high-speed rail summit in Atlanta in 2002 to focus on the idea.

“I’m very excited about it because it’s a project that could work,” Isakson said at the time. “The federal government could be a partner in providing capital funding to make it happen if the states can provide the money to operate the system.”

The co-chairman of the Southeastern Economic Alliance was Milton Jones, who was then the MidSouth president for Charlotte-based Bank of America.

“I love the idea of the Southeast corridor being the demonstration project,” Jones said at the time. “But we’ve got a lot of work to do before that can happen. It’s going to take a team effort across the Southeast.”

Unfortunately, there hasn’t been much to show for those efforts.

Then our hopes were lifted again in 2009 when a newly-elected President Barack Obama got on board the high-speed rail movement.

On April 16, 2009, Obama announced a new vision for high-speed rail and intercity passenger rail in the United States.

“Imagine whisking through towns at speeds over 100 miles an hour, walking only a few steps to public transportation, and ending up just blocks from your destination. Imagine what a great project that would be to rebuild America.”

Designated high-speed rail corridors

But with the Great Recession and with only lukewarm support from state partners, the high-speed rail movement in the United States has been slow going.

Meanwhile, countries around the world continue to build out their high-speed rail networks — leaving the United States still in a catch-up mode.

But several high speed rail corridors in the United States have been designated, and Atlanta actually would fare quite well with proposed lines northeast to Charlotte and Virginia, southwest to New Orleans and southeast to Jacksonville. What’s missing is a northwest line connecting Atlanta with Chattanooga, Indianapolis and Chicago.

Surprisingly, the already-designated high-speed rail corridor from Atlanta to the coast currently is not designed to serve Savannah. Perhaps Reed, working with his Republican partner Gov. Nathan Deal, could convince U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood to tweak that line so we could resurrect the modern day version of the Nancy Hanks.

“This is what I believe as a leader of the capital city,” Reed said. “I believe I can be helpful in achieving that vision. People in our community want a vision of what is next.”

 

Maria Saporta, editor, of the Saporta Report in Atlanta is a longtime Atlanta business, civic and urban affairs journalist who writes a weekly column and news stories for the Atlanta Business Chronicle.


dougskiles

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Re: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 02:52:46 PM »
What are the chances after the T-SPLOST failure?

The greatest hope that I see would be if it could somehow be a Republican lead effort.  Perhaps one of party leaders will be smart enough to realize that they need to start thinking about more than the suburban voters.  That is if they want to be in the White House.  As Jeb Bush has stated over and over, the party of rich old white guys isn't getting any larger (maybe individually getting larger, but not more populous).

tufsu1

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Re: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 03:03:04 PM »
T-SPLOST failed because it was too big and covered too manty suburban counties.....the referendum actually passed in Atlanta itself.

Cities in Florida have taken notice...in fact, Tampa is considering drafting a bill asking the Legislature to give cities the right to have sales tax increases (right now it can only happen at the county level).

I think select projects have a chance...in thsi case, high speed rail to Savannah is likely a non-starter....but resumption of passenger rail (maybe even higher speed) should be viewed more positively.

JeffreyS

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Re: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 03:18:04 PM »
All we need is to get the SEHSR going.
Lenny Smash

thelakelander

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Re: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 03:45:09 PM »
I still think the SEHSR concept and HSR between Atlanta and Savannah is a pipe dream.  However, conventional intercity rail between these cities makes a ton of sense.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

fieldafm

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Re: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 03:50:39 PM »
I still think the SEHSR concept and HSR between Atlanta and Savannah is a pipe dream.  However, conventional intercity rail between these cities makes a ton of sense.

Doesn't look like Bill Shuster thinks HSR is viable anywhere outside the Northeast... so doubt any federal funding will be coming any time soon.  The state can spend money on upgrading the Savannah port or fund HSR.  Which one has the most bang for the buck?  Intrastate HSR isn't going to win that fight (nor should it). 

spuwho

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Re: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 05:23:06 PM »
They can't get I-95 updates finished in a reasonable amount of time, what indication is there that they could get HSR finished? The updates on I-75 north of Valdosta have been in progress for over 7 years.

Oh yeah, that's right, these issues aren't around Atlanta.

Perhaps the mayor should eat dinner in Tifton or Cordele and see what the server there says.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2012, 12:06:04 AM »
The Atlanta-Savannah route has constantly been dreamed up since the start of Amtrak back in 1971. The 'pocket streamliner' Nancy Hanks II, was a conventional train with a rabid following - so of course the Amtrak planners left it out. The trouble is every time they've mentioned this idea, it's sold as Atlanta-Jacksonville via Savannah. Sorry Georgia but thats a dog that won't hunt.


urbanlibertarian

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Re: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2012, 03:00:50 PM »
Shouldn't they call a train from Atlanta to Savannah the General William Tecumseh Sherman?  :D
Sed quis custodiet ipsos cutodes (Who watches the watchmen?)

thelakelander

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Re: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2012, 03:09:39 PM »
Only if it shoots out fire as it goes through the Georgia countryside....
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Tacachale

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Re: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 04:18:38 PM »
Would neckties be required for those riding the train?
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Ocklawaha

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Re: Atlanta looks to high speed rail connection with Savannah
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 10:36:22 PM »
Here is the actual story for those who don't have memories of The Nancy, and a few thoughts on what we need to do.








The Nancy Hanks II, leaving Atlanta in better days.

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In 1892 the Central of Georgia bought compound #1592 from Baldwin Locomotive Works and named the locomotive “Nancy Hanks” after the mare that held the world mile trotting record at the time, the mare herself was said to have been named after Abraham Lincoln’s mother. The following year the locomotive was assigned to a speedy Savannah – Atlanta passenger train, and soon the moniker migrated from the locomotive to the entire train, which sported blue and gold coaches, with each bearing a likeness to the renowned mare. Service was cancelled, however, on August 13, 1893, after several “Nancys” trotted off the tracks, which at the time was unprepared for the speeds the Compound could make when she stretched out her long legs.

Fifty four years later on July 17, 1947, Central's quick footed coast-to-capitol service returned, this time to much more capable trackage, in the form of a beautiful blue and gray four-car diesel powered streamliner, the Nancy Hanks II. The cars were from American Car and Foundry, the power from General Motors, and the service was an immediate success. Central applied the same sound philosophy to the Nancy Hanks II that it applied to the Man O' War - cheap fares and a ninety-notches-and-no-smoke schedule in combination to draw Georgians out of their ever more beloved automobiles.

There were twelve schedule stops and three flag stops between the Savannah Passenger Depot and Atlanta Terminal Station. Only five minutes were allowed for the stop in Macon, and the 293.7-mile route was covered in 5 hours and 40 minutes on the Savannah-Atlanta run. A grill-lounge car provided "all meals."

Ridership was high, and the Central quickly found its decision to tack six extra general service coaches onto the ACF "Nancy" order had been wisely made. A fifth car was added to the Nancy Hanks II on weekdays and a sixth on weekends. Like a seasoned jockey the Central whipped up patronage with promotions like "Rich's Shoppers Specials" on both the "Nancy" and the Man O' War, bringing travelers practically to the doorsteps of the resplendent Department Store of the South in downtown Atlanta, quite an adventure in Georgia in the days before shopping malls in every hamlet.

Sadly, by the time the Southern bought the Central on 1963 the "handwriting was on the wall" for the Nancy Hanks II, to quote President Dillard. Airlines were no longer just exotic luxuries for the wealthy and every year a bridge replaced one more ferry and a few more red clay hills were cut down and smoothed over by a ribbon of asphalt. Georgians could drive their own automobiles to Rich's, even after a rainy spell.

In 1968 the Southern gamely added dome cars purchased from the Wabash to the "Nancy" in an effort to boost patronage, but by now there was a good deal more handwriting than wall. By 1970 Southern wanted out and sought to discontinue the Nancy Hanks II, but the Georgia Public Service Commission ordered the Southern to keep the train running.

However, Southern saw a way to rid itself of the Nancy Hanks II, in spite of the Georgia PSC. The law that created Amtrak stated that when a railroad joined Amtrak that railroad could terminate its passenger service. In 1971, Southern Railway had declined to join Amtrak, in part so that it could continue to operate the Crescent. However, in a highly unusual move, Southern claimed that subsidiary Central of Georgia was technically an independent railroad, and as such able to join Amtrak, even while parent Southern stayed out.

Amtrak agreed with Southern's interpretation of the legislation and admitted the Central of Georgia, which, according to the wishes of its parent, then exercised its option to drop the Nancy Hanks II. The National Association of Rail Passengers sued both Amtrak and Southern, seeking to have the decision overturned, pointing out that the Central was merely an operating division of the Southern. The courts, however, sided with Southern and the Nancy Hanks II was doomed. Old friends could only stand and watch when, on April 30, 1971, the "Nancy" pulled out of Savannah for the last time.

Certainly the Nancy Hanks III should be reestablished on a daily Atlanta-Savannah Route. The sister train of the Nancy Hanks II could easily be reestablished between Atlanta and Columbus. Jacksonville however, is a different story.


This is a map from an older plan, but it shows the lines.

I wonder what effect it would have on the process if we launched a full court press, developed an organization, and stacked it with political converts, one at a time, to get some logic in this plan.

Two famous routes connect Jacksonville and Atlanta, the same length almost to the mile, neither of them passing through Savannah. Another possible route would run over the tracks of two railroads, CSX from Jacksonville to Jesup, and NS from Jesup to Atlanta.

NS is usually easier to work with the CSX on projects involving the public, and I-75 is by far the heaviest trafficked route between northern states and Southern states.  The Norfolk Southern, nee Southern Railway, nee Georgia, Southern and Florida, is in my opinion the superior line. Nearly arrow straight from Jacksonville to Valdosta (a sizable community in it's own right) then on to Macon-Atlanta-Chattanooga, this is the route of the former flagship trains, 'The Ponce De Leon,' and 'The Royal Palm.' 


Greater Metropolitan Council, Georgia

If you think the dirty tricks involving The Nancy Hanks II were bad, you'd love the final days of these trains.  Southern wanting out of the passenger business discovered a loophole in the law permitting ending passenger service virtually without notice if certain conditions were met pertaining to flagging ridership. 

The Ponce De Leon's ridership fell to just the right ratio between Council, Georgia and Jacksonville, Florida. (Council, is south of the Okefenokee Swamp about half way between Jacksonville and Valdosta). So one day in February 1964, the Ponce De Leon rolled out of Cincinnati, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon and Valdosta and came to a halt in Council.  Buses would move the passengers on country highways the rest of the way into Jacksonville. Apparently there isn't much of a market for passenger trains, buses or aircraft between the midwest cities and Council, so just like that, the Ponce De Leon was dead.

Then there was the slow dismemberment of the sister train to the Ponce De Leon, known as The Royal Palm. The amenities provided on the Royal Palm were gradually curtailed as Southern Railway attempted to reduce operating losses. The train was discontinued in segments - first between Jacksonville and Valdosta, Georgia in 1966 when the diner and sleeper were dropped - but the Palm carried its coach-lounge right up to the end of its long career. Ironically, the "Royal Palm" name was kept even though the train no longer served Florida where royal palms thrived on the lower east coast. Later the two-car remnant of the once proud sunliner was discontinued south of Atlanta, then the section between Somerset, Kentucky and Dalton, Georgia was cut, leaving two disconnected trains, which were finally discontinued in 1970.



THIS IS WHERE GEORGIA, FLORIDA AND JACKSONVILLE, SHOULD BE LOOKING TO REESTABLISH SERVICE BETWEEN FLORIDA AND THE MIDWEST.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 10:53:15 PM by Ocklawaha »